My opinion on punches

This post was selected as 'spicy saturday picks' by Blogadda on 19 Sep 2009. Please click on the image to see the results page.

My blogger friend Indian Pandit is a very thinking person and his thoughts will always be straight and strong. So naturally I like to read all his posts. Recently he published a post on “Opposite punches – First instalment” and it was very nice as usual. Though I appreciate his courage in questioning the quotes of great personalities, I differ with his points to great extent. I started typing this reply in his comments section, but since this looked like a long reply, I decided to make it as a post allowing all of my blogger buddies to read and leave a comment here.

Mr. Jefferson’s Quote:
“Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.”

Indian Pandit's reply to Mr. Jefferson:
Mr.Jefferson, how about questioning "with boldness" the paternity of your father? Do you think he would have approved this "homage of reason" more than that of blindfolded belief? You delivered this "sermon" on August 10, 1787. Obviously there was no way by which you could have determined your biological father except your mother's word. Again, my question is, on what basis did you trust your mother's word. How did she proved to you that the person you called father is actually your biological father? Also, how do you know your mother is actually your biological mother?

The answer to this question is : TRUST & BELIEF!
Same is with God.So guys,have trust in His existence and have faith in Him.
There is no room for questioning Him.
Just like you don't question your mother and father.
What needs to be questioned is Religion until you find the answer!
Or better still, try and form your own philosophies regarding God.
That's a "homage of reason".

My opinion:

I don’t know who Mr. Jefferson is, but I see a lot of sense in what ever he said. Even Swami Vivekananda said similar words once “I would prefer an atheist than a blind theist”

Gandhi said “What ever the message you have, it should be given with love, or else the message and messenger both will be rejected”. Here, by touching a very sentimental issue of parental paternity I believe my friend IP left chance for many to get offended.

But nevertheless I will answer his point. Why people are reluctant in probing their true parental identity?

They don’t want to create chaos to a smoothly run family in that unlikely event of getting unwanted result. Or they are reluctant in facing the truth if found negative. I don’t know what does this have in relation to belief in God? Please explain IP.

I believe, asking question is a sign of maturity. Unless we ask questions in life, we can not move forward. Every development, whether it is mental or material, moved forward only because we questioned. Sidhardha became Buddha only because he questioned.
Even swami Vivekananda was an atheist before he joined Ramakrishna. Only thing we should keep in mind is to be unbiased with the answers we get and move forward.

My friend IP said we need to have “trust and belief in God”.

But why should I have trust and belief in God?

Is that to please the God to give some favors over my fellow people?

I strongly believe this world is run with certain laws which no one can change it. If at all, all the prayers had power, there wouldn’t be anyone dyeing. I have seen a friend praying whole hearted to save her husband who was in death bed. I can bet she prayed with all intensity as her husband means a lot to her. But still death was inevitable. That is what is the beauty of nature. Nature doesn’t have exceptions or lend ears to recommendations. So I don’t want to believe in god to get this never existent favor.

Or may be diplomatically we can say ‘we need to thank God for giving a lovely life’. For this, first of all I need to love life. When I am in bliss with each and every moment of this life, I can thank God for giving this wonderful world. But as like more common beings, I face troubles and happiness together. When I am troubled, I am sad. When I am happy, I enjoy it. So I need to wait to thank God until I treat every incident with balance.

But by seeing the thirst for freedom in all living things, the well organized happenings in life, the cause and effect of Karma, I am interested in understanding God. Still I don’t want to believe, but I definitely want to understand. Once I understood, I will start believe. But before that, though I dont believe, I woudnt say there is no God.

If my friend IP say that he is an enlightened person and experienced God himself and that is the reason why he is asking everyone to believe in God, then I will be very happy for him. But if not, I could remember famous words of Jagi, “Unless you realize it by yourself, it would only look like one blind person explaining another blind about the beauty of sunrise”.

Gandhi’s statement:
"An Eye For An Eye Makes The Whole World Blind"

IP’s reply to Gandhi,
My enemy comes and takes out my one eye.
It hurts. It bleeds. I suffer. My family suffers.
Now i can see only with one eye.
But i say: "An Eye For An Eye Makes The Whole World Blind"
He comes back and takes out my other eye.
It hurts.It bleeds. I suffer.My family suffers.
My enemy says:"The world can see, but you cant, you are blind!!!"


"Forgive and Forget" does not work with evil!!!!!
My opinion on this:

First of all, what is evil?

One person’s evil is another person’s virtue.

If you take Mumbai bomb blast, for us it is evil. But for those who did it, it is a virtue. Every one see evil and virtues with their own perspective. So if every one wants to take an eye of their evil, we can only see the world as a shelter of a blind community. If you think deep, the cause of terrorism arised only because of this faith. They were hurt by some incident. They want to recenge their pain which resulted in terrorism. I dont know if love will make the whole world glowing, but I am sure taking an eye for an eye will make whole world blind.

Secondly, violence is an instant reaction. Any reaction which is instant will lack sense. Violence comes because of fear. Fear leads to hatred. And hatred is one of the root cause for all the suffering.

Hope IP would take this as a constructive criticism. I dont reiterate what ever said here is the only truth in this universe. So, I welcome differences.

You can read my part II of this post here (click here)


Lakshmi Rajan said...
September 17, 2009 at 2:54 PM

Hmmm nice counter analysis. I agree with your point on believing God blindly. Questioning is what takes human race forward. If one have to accept God blindly, one does not need the sense called reasoning. Everyone needs to questiong , understand and then believe or not believe God... If God would want people to blindly follow, he could have proved himself more obvious to leave out any doubts. For Theist , He did it so that everyone reason their existence , His existence and arrive at self-realization.. For Atheist , It leaves them to question on a different path - If not God , then Who ? Why ? Even that pursuit of questioning will lead to a self-realization but even for that an Atheist has to question.

And abuot Gandhi's quote : Nothing much to say from my side as of now ,you have said it right.. :)

Indian Pundit said...
September 17, 2009 at 3:41 PM

Note: i am absolutely thrilled to see that my good friend Bharathi has written a post with COUNTER ARGUMENTS on my post. I absolutely appreciate it and thank him for his effort

1) My understanding of God is little different from others. i firmly believe in KARMA. All the good results that we enjoy are because of our OWN ACTIONS. God merely ensures that we get the DESIRED RESULTS OF OUR ACTIONS.Praying without performing proper actions wont give us any results. He ensures that GOOD ACTIONS ARE REWARDED....and "not so good" actions are PUNISHED.

I wrote:

What needs to be questioned is Religion until you find the answer!
Or better still, try and form your own philosophies regarding God.

Yeah question Religious beliefs all the time.

i mentioned this paternity issue because all of us accept our parents based on trust and belief just like God.

Indian Pundit said...
September 17, 2009 at 3:57 PM

2)Bharathi wrote:

One person’s evil is another person’s virtue.

True. Very True.

My friend Bharathi gives the example of Mumbai attacks. He writes:
If you take Mumbai bomb blast, for us it is evil. But for those who did it, it is a virtue.

Think about those who consider that terrible attack a "virtue".
If we "Forgive and forget".....they will ATTACK AGAIN.Simply because its a virtue for them.
But for us,Indians IT WAS tell me should we allow them to commit it again??
Why do u think India gets attacked by Pak based terrorist again and again??..simply because we never hit them on their own soil.....they know very well maximum India can do is talk ,talk and talk...this act as an incentive for them to attack.

We need to understand that, there are certain elements WHO ARE BEYOND ANY SCOPE OF GOODNESS AND VIRTUE.....they must be eliminated or else we will be eliminated by them.
Few examples:
1) Nazi Germany
2)Taliban etc etc.

Gandhiji was a great man. But some of his ideas are very Utopian.

We need to be realist

Indian Pundit said...
September 17, 2009 at 4:07 PM

if every one wants to take an eye of their evil, we can only see the world as a shelter of a blind community.

Let me give u an example.

Consider mad dogs.
No matter how many times u "forgive and forget"...No matter how many times u act politely and kindly with those dogs....The Dog Will Bite You Everytime...simple because its insane, mad and devoid of reason and virtue.

So what is the best course of action????

Kill it or take it to a vet and give "proper medication"!!

Similarly,certain elements of this world needs to be eliminated or forcefully given proper "medicines" to have them cured.

Got the point my friend?

Vipul Grover said...
September 17, 2009 at 4:24 PM

Evrything said nd done, the main issue in this discussion is as Bharathi says,
I dont reiterate what ever said here is the only truth. So, I welcome differences.
Learn to welcum differences and respecting othrs' point of views rather thn giving verdicts. Period.

Indian Pundit said...
September 17, 2009 at 4:38 PM

Learn to welcum differences and respecting othrs' point of views rather thn giving verdicts. Period.

Yes boss.

i definitely respect point of view of Bharathi.

BK Chowla said...
September 17, 2009 at 5:00 PM

I am in agreement with IP.Can we forgive those responsible for terror attacks in Bombay?
If I could ,I would kill them .

Shankar said...
September 17, 2009 at 6:51 PM

exactly the same way I feel.... I too prefer an atheist...than being a blind theist... when I argued this to shruthi about this.. she told i am crazy and mad...

And vipul said was so true... learn to welcome the difference..which only very few people do...

After rajasekar reddy died(chief minister of andra) died. one of my friends came to me and told...
Do you know rajasekar reddy died.... I told yeah..i know..he is a good minister... U know what the reply he gave me??

He said " you know why he died?? rajasekar reddy told he will build a church in the seven hills... I mean at tirupati... So he died... What you will call that guy as?

But when I argued to him about this he called me as Atheist.I don't deny or question the existence of god...But we should not be so blind and mad about it...

And i firmly believe in "anbe sivam" policy.....

HaRy!! said...
September 17, 2009 at 6:51 PM

hmm quite an interesting counter argument, although my opinion i dont agree with Bharthi on the evil take...though its virtue that makes us decide finally...might be wrong...but goood one!


Guria said...
September 17, 2009 at 6:59 PM

Really really liked reading your point of view! After I read IP's of course!

I just have some points to make.

I strongly believe this world is run with certain laws which no one can change it. If at all, all the prayers had power, there wouldn’t be anyone dyeing.

Which certain laws? What is God but perception of those very laws?
Do you think we pray for the best thing? People not dying, in your example is it the best thing that we can ask from God? Is it better live one forever, sick, bedridden? Can you pray to cure if someone has cancer, not if, in your heart you know it's futile, in a word, you don't have the faith. (because I have a relative who is still living after the doctors all over the world said he'll die in 6 months max, for nine years now- faith).

As in IP's first statement about Jefferson, I have found everyone doesn't take it into account that the year was 1757! He wasn't trying to preach anything about God but telling the then God-fearing people to come out of their shells, and use their common sense to ask the validity of things, practices around them. So if they could question God they could question anything as power was wielded over people by the mention of God.

As for the last. Just because someone told you this is virtue, a evil never becomes a virtue. We renounce satidaha, child-marriage today, but was it a virtue when it was practised just because the Brahmins said so. The thing is your perspective is wrong. You can never see the moon from the wrong end of telescope.

Sorry for the long comment but couldn't resist myself. Please take no offence, this was just a few reactions on my part. But really enjoyed the punch-backs! :)

Whoo! Finished!

Anu...:) said...
September 17, 2009 at 8:26 PM

Nice argument,valid points:)

Sid 'Ravan' Kabe said...
September 17, 2009 at 11:06 PM

ok...agreed with you on first point...

agreed with IP on second point...

however u both show contrasting views... while IP says have faith in God and then wishes to resolve fight in his own way...

while you believe in pure atheism, which I support you to the core, and you take a stand about non-violence with i seriously disagree...

Yes, your virtue might be my evil... but wen ur virtue becomes my trouble...den my virtue is too destroy every evil!!!!

pra said...
September 17, 2009 at 11:46 PM

I agree partly with you on first point and totally disagree with you on the second point.Many times not reacting to the bad acts done to you can be dangerous.Atleast you have to show that you can answer back.
The first point is complecated.At some point you have to believe and have faith in things.You can not ask questions or couldn't get the answers but still you have to believe.Swami Vivekanand wanted to meet God or Ma Kali. But Ramakrishna never gave him that experiance. He told swamiji that it was not his path. His path is of Karma! And Swamiji believed and trusted him.Did what was told to him till the end. So 'Yes' questioning is necessary and you can question each and everything but having unquestioned faith is also necessary sometimes.I think the thing/person you believe unquestioning is your God!

Anonymous said...
September 17, 2009 at 11:49 PM

Agree with your both the points.. If you check my comment on IP's post, you will find similar argument.. but yeah I am not an atheist.. I believe there is a power which is controlling everything but it may or may not be called "God".. because we have so many unexplained things happening.. how would you explain what existed before big bang? when did universe start? who injected hydrogen and helium into the space? we dont know any of the answers but to believe in the fact that there is a creator.. but we do have the right to question or think about who that might be.. And I agree totally with your point 2..

VISHNU said...
September 18, 2009 at 3:05 AM

hope every1 has seen the matrix series..
our world is jus 1 big random program..
there are pple who want to know beyond the matrix and there are pple who would like to live inside the matrix.. so free..

P.S:jefferson is thomas jefferson who i think is the 3rd president of the USA..
n happy to witness a blog fight..

Bharathi said...
September 18, 2009 at 8:49 AM

@ ALL: Thanks a lot for a nice debate. I am gonna answer all your comments individually in my next post. I decided to do this as the comment will be little long.
And this will happen tomorrow as I am little tiedup with work to spare some time for thinking. said...
September 18, 2009 at 12:39 PM

haha ... i so wana give a funny commnt ... but I will be serious ... abt the post ..well i believe wen we make a statement or certain kinda view ... thts coz of our experience n sense of knowledge .... so I kinda respect others views as I believe their reason must be valid ...

Singh Amit said...
September 18, 2009 at 2:49 PM

Very Nice post!
Well, most of things have been said. Nothing more to say..Nevertheless…I would say…..

Trust and belief are inevitable but there should be a solid and concrete base. When anyone’s mother says that he is one’s father, it has a concrete base to be trusted because this trust to my mother is not blind, it is due to her love; her affection towards one.
Well, to tell about a father, we have a mother.
But who is here to tell us about God?
…Scriptures or our priests?

I think, not in any way, they are comparable to mothers. Are they?

What is needed to have a blind faith in GOD?
I do not know if it interpolates any direct equation in being atheist and peacefulness. But certainly it seems imperative that in Sweden, where 85% of population are atheist is ranked 1st in most peaceful countries. Just ponder the percentage of theists in Taliban and Pakistan.


Sat_hi_sh said...
September 18, 2009 at 7:21 PM

My vote goes for Indian Pundit :)

" Violence is an instant reaction. Any reaction which is instant will lack sense. Violence comes because of fear. Fear leads to hatred. And hatred is one of the root cause for all the suffering. "

This kinda logic is useless for a family who lost their young daughter(raped & murdered).

So temme Bharathi for the above scenario what would be ur retribution to those kinda criminals ?

bliss said...
September 18, 2009 at 10:34 PM

hey, damn nice post, man..if i may give my opinion, i agree with IP more on first quote. sometimes, u got to trust cuz thats all u can do. sths go without saying, some assumptions are made. even if u r not totally happy with course of ur life at a certain pt, i dont think that is ever possible that u dont have ath to be happy abt!!!!!! like they say, even a stopped clock shows corrrect time twice a day!!! however deep the shit migth be, there is always sth to be happy abt. trust me on that one!!!!

on the sec quote, i think i agree with u, though not completely... truly, one's evil might be virtue for other one but thats no justification, sths are outright wrong and giving them name of virtue, religion, principles, belief etc etc is wrong all the same... yes, revenge is not the way out but a line must be drawn. u cant go arnd thinking 'let them do wat they want to do. m just gonna love them cuz thats the way its supposed to be!!'its said in geeta, one who bears evil and wrong is just as guilty as one who does it!! somewhere u got to stop, somewhere u got to take action, somewhere u got to do wat u got to do, just like arjun did!!!!

pretty long comment! huh.

P.S. i think sth is wrong with ur template or maybe its just me.. but the comments are not really visible on ur main page.. just thought wud let u know, in case its just me!

Shruti said...
September 18, 2009 at 11:48 PM


Still i will tell the same. I Tell sloka's and mantra's, learn Gita! But that doesn't mean am a theist!
Uttering sloka's rings an inner peace of mind, so i Do that!
My perspective about God : We all trust and believe God so much only if we need something desperately! I had the same experience and am not feeling shy in confessing that i have been selfish to God many a times.
Before two years i trusted God, when my mother was in her deathbed i went to almost all temples and literally cried to God to give back my mom! (My Selfishness)

But the destiny had its own decision and eventually i lost her!

When my prayers failed, i stopped believing in God! WHATEVER HAPPENS HERE, IT HAPPENS WITH A REASON!
But i never stopped my chanting!

I started believing in FATE! Again, in Hindu mythology, fate and destiny is designed by GOD! So does this mean I believe him? Am confused!
Am neither a Theist nor an Atheist! I started viewing life in my own perspective!

II Instance
Terrorism as an evil and a virtue!
Though it is good to argue, in fact how many lives are lost in the Mumbai blast! By their virtue What they achieved? Killing innocent people is a virtue? I find no harm in punishing these people!
I have seen Coimbatore blasts and i have sen innocent kids lying near the dead bodies of their mother and crying. What harm did they do? Ahain by those virtue, the kill people who are not related to them! What do the terrorists need! Are they fighting for some noble cause?! Naah!

I guess i wrote a pretty long comment!
Bear with me Bharthi!

Shilpa Garg said...
September 19, 2009 at 11:55 PM

Congratulations!! :)

Bharathi said...
September 20, 2009 at 9:58 PM

@ Shilpa: Thnaks

Gopinath Mavinkurve said...
September 22, 2009 at 10:39 AM

Bharathi - Firstly congratulations to being featured in Blogadda! This thoughtprovoking post does deserve it! As regards the evil being virtue, i beg to differ thus: The evil act of terror unleashed on innocent citizens can never be seen as a 'virtue' even by the very terror outfits - they know it is an evil act! An act which by their reasoning was required to be carried out to achieve some goals unknown to many!
If these people had faces and were willing to come and talk, matters could have been sorted out, but these people have lost faith and have acted like cowards - perhaps their real goals unachieved. Evil acts need to be dealt with a firm hand in today's world...if only we can be sure whodunit?!

Ashish said...
September 22, 2009 at 12:50 PM

Great to see a post like this. Very rational.
Do drop by Subliminal verses sometime :)

Bharathi said...
September 22, 2009 at 9:40 PM

@ Gopinath: Thanks a lot for congratulating. I believe I answered your comment in my second installation of this post. Please check and comment. Btw. I welcome differences. thanks for differing with me :-)

@ Ashish: thanks for your complement pal. Will visit your blog.

Aditya said...
September 24, 2009 at 12:25 PM

Very good analysis.

Blind faith has always caused problems-be it on god or on anything. Faith without reason is like food without salt. May eb god exists or may be he doesnt, but what I dont understand is the blind faith of the people on a book written 1000 years ago.agreed its a great piece of literature but still will you believe Superman is for real just because you have the comics? What i mean is, if the world destroys today and some 100s of years later, when our future starts digging for archeology purposes and find a superman comic, start believing him God, the creator of superman would be laughing in his grave!

Oops this is getting too big a comment , sorry for violating the space :)

Bharathi said...
September 24, 2009 at 4:04 PM

@ Adithya: Excellent point. I like this. I too say the same thought to many but not as beautiful as you said. We can not respect anything since because it is old. Good point again. Btw. thanks for joining. I dont mind bigger comments as long as it is sensible.

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